Position of kasra when used together with tashdid in Arabic

[Meho R.]

Hi,

This issue is bothering me for some time now: when kasra and tashdid are used
together, kasra gets positioned just below tashdid instead of below the actual
letter. This is a well-known issue and some workarounds have been made (e.g.,
reversing the order of writing, first kasra, then tashdid). However, I still
haven't find a proper way to solve this with XeLaTeX. I tried with some custom
LaTeX commands (\raisebox and similar), but the problem is, if you enter a
command in the middle of a word, the link between letters is broken (e.g.
instead of سُيِّرَت one gets سُىِّ رَتْ). Does anyone know if there's a way to
move kasra below the letter instead of below tashdid only?

[Khaled Hosny]

Post by Meho R.
Hi,
This issue is bothering me for some time now: when kasra and tashdid are used
together, kasra gets positioned just below tashdid instead of below the actual
letter. This is a well-known issue and some workarounds have been made (e.g.,
reversing the order of writing, first kasra, then tashdid). However, I still
haven't find a proper way to solve this with XeLaTeX. I tried with some custom
LaTeX commands (\raisebox and similar), but the problem is, if you enter a
command in the middle of a word, the link between letters is broken (e.g.
instead of سُيِّرَت one gets سُىِّ رَتْ). Does anyone know if there's a way to move
kasra below the letter instead of below tashdid only?

You make it sound like a bug! This is standard typesetting practice
since 1912 when Ahmad Zaki Pasha opted for it over the, then more
common, kasra bellow base character, citing better readability, which
was then followed by the royal press and other printing shops in Egypt
(the actual introduction of kasra below shadda dates much older than
this).

That being said, the position of kasra relative to shadda is up to the
font designer. For example I prefer the more traditional behaviour in my
fonts, while fonts like Scheherazade make sure that both <shadda><kasra>
and <kasra><shadda> render kasra bellow shadda, so reordering will not
work here.

Regards,
Khaled

[Jonathan Kew]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Vafa Khalighi]

I guess, this is a font problem rather than being a bug.

See my attached example. Of course, my approach would be tedious and
annoying if you are typesetting a textbook full of these. The best thing is
to try a font which does not have this kind of issue.

[Meho R.]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Khaled Hosny]

Post by Meho R.
Sorry for making it sound like a bug, I didn't mean to put it that way. Having
kasra below shadda/tashdid is fine by me in most cases. But there are some
times when I have to put kasra below the letter (e.g., when typesetting parts
of arabic text containing quranic verses). I'm aware it is up to a font
designers, who mostly follow only "kasra below shadda" way. And this is one
http://fonts.qurancomplex.gov.sa/). I was hoping someone knows of a workaround
or a hack which I can use with XeLaTeX to overcome this. Vafa provided a
valuable code (thank you!) which works fine for some fonts, but, unfortunately,
not for this one :( If anyone has any suggestions, please, let me know. Thanks.

I don't know any XeTeX solutions, nor enough TeX to do clever TeX
wizardry like Vfa, but if there is interest in LuaTeX based solution, I
think something can be done with font feature file, but I don't want to
look like "hijacking" XeTeX threads.

[Vafa Khalighi]

Post by Meho R.
I was hoping someone knows of a
workaround or a hack which I can use with XeLaTeX to overcome this. Vafa
provided a valuable code (thank you!) which works fine for some fonts, but,
unfortunately, not for this one :( If anyone has any suggestions, please, let me
know. Thanks.

I am not sure what kind of font you have but perhaps that is cursive. In
that case you can try reducing horizontal spacing between appropriate
letters until all letters are connected. You should instead, either if the
font is open-source, change it for your own purpose, or use Khaled's
suggestion about using luatex instead xetex.

[Meho R.]

OK, there's maybe another way (maybe not related directly to XeLaTeX, so I
apologize for off topic): is there a way to disable certain glyphs in a font
using (Xe)LaTeX? In the font I'm using: KFGQPC Uthman Taha Naskh
font: http://fonts.qurancomplex.gov.sa/ there are glyphs buried deep in the file
(at its end, 65545 and 65550, which, when removed, produced "correctly"
positioned kasra and shadda, as well as tanween-double kasra and shadda (i.e.
kasra/double kasra went below the letter). However, although this font is free,
no modifications are allowed to be done, so I'd rather simply disable those two
glyphs if possible than removing them from the font using, e.g., fontforge
(which, btw, returned some errors: wrong direction, missing points at extrema,
too many points, bad glyph name).

Not to forget, thank you all for your suggestions. I tried them all, for some
fonts using urdu and/or sindhi solved the problem, for some Vafa's code works
fine, but this font is different.



________________________________
From: Vafa Khalighi <vafakh84-***@public.gmane.org>
To: xetex-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Fri, July 9, 2010 3:29:31 AM
Subject: Re: [XeTeX] Position of kasra when used together with tashdid in Arabic


I was hoping someone knows of a

Post by Meho R.
workaround or a hack which I can use with XeLaTeX to overcome this. Vafa
provided a valuable code (thank you!) which works fine for some fonts, but,
unfortunately, not for this one :( If anyone has any suggestions, please, let me
know. Thanks.

I am not sure what kind of font you have but perhaps that is cursive. In that
case you can try reducing horizontal spacing between appropriate letters until
all letters are connected. You should instead, either if the font is
open-source, change it for your own purpose, or use Khaled's suggestion about
using luatex instead xetex.

[Andy Lin]

The best thing is to try a font which does not have this kind of issue.

I've attached a pdf file of various Arabic fonts (most of them are
included with newer versions of Windows). The string is input with
tashdid before kasra. The first column has the script set to Arabic,
the second column has the language set to Urdu (the SIL fonts behave
differently here!), and the third has the language set to Farsi.

Hope this helps,
Andy

[Kamal Abdali]

While the problem is with fonts, I think it is really caused by language
differences. In Urdu, the convention for the tashdid-kasra combination is
to put tashdid above and kasra below the letter. This convention applies
even to Arabic texts (e.g., the Qurans) published in countries like Pakistan
and India with large numbers of Urdu speakers. The Qurans published in Arab
countries place kasra below the tashdid symbol, of course. Incidentally,
there are several other orthographic differences in the Qurans published in
Pakistan and India and those published in Arab countries.

This variation is unfortunate because it limits the use of many fonts across
different languages.

Below is the image of a Mac TextEdit window with the tashdid-kasra
combination in three different Urdu fonts.

Kamal Abdali

[image: tashdid-kasra-urdu.jpg]

Post by Andy Lin

The best thing is to try a font which does not have this kind of issue.

I've attached a pdf file of various Arabic fonts (most of them are
included with newer versions of Windows). The string is input with
tashdid before kasra. The first column has the script set to Arabic,
the second column has the language set to Urdu (the SIL fonts behave
differently here!), and the third has the language set to Farsi.
Hope this helps,
Andy
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[Khaled Hosny]

Post by Kamal Abdali
While the problem is with fonts, I think it is really caused by language
differences.  In Urdu, the convention for the tashdid-kasra combination is to
put tashdid above and kasra below the letter. This convention applies even to
Arabic texts (e.g., the Qurans) published in countries like Pakistan and India
with large numbers of Urdu speakers. The Qurans published in Arab countries
place kasra below the tashdid symbol, of course.

Not the ones that I have here, actually all printed Masahif (Mushaf is
the book form of Quran, Quran refers to the actual content) follow the
old convention if kasra bellow base.

Post by Kamal Abdali
Incidentally, there are
several other orthographic differences in the Qurans published in Pakistan and
India and those published in Arab countries.

There are different conventions across Arabic countries as well (eg.
Moroccan vs. Egyptian)

Regards,
Khaled

Post by Kamal Abdali
This variation is unfortunate because it limits the use of many fonts across
different languages.
Below is the image of a Mac TextEdit window with the tashdid-kasra combination
in three different Urdu fonts.
Kamal Abdali
tashdid-kasra-urdu.jpg

The best thing is to try a font which does not have this kind of issue.

I've attached a pdf file of various Arabic fonts (most of them are
included with newer versions of Windows). The string is input with
tashdid before kasra. The first column has the script set to Arabic,
the second column has the language set to Urdu (the SIL fonts behave
differently here!), and the third has the language set to Farsi.
Hope this helps,
Andy
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[Khaled Hosny]

Post by Kamal Abdali
While the problem is with fonts, I think it is really caused by language
differences.  In Urdu, the convention for the tashdid-kasra combination is to
put tashdid above and kasra below the letter. This convention applies even to
Arabic texts (e.g., the Qurans) published in countries like Pakistan and India
with large numbers of Urdu speakers. The Qurans published in Arab countries
place kasra below the tashdid symbol, of course.

Not the ones that I have here, actually all printed Masahif (Mushaf is
the book form of Quran, Quran refers to the actual content) follow the
old convention if kasra bellow base.

Post by Kamal Abdali
Incidentally, there are
several other orthographic differences in the Qurans published in Pakistan and
India and those published in Arab countries.

There are different conventions across Arabic countries as well (eg.
Moroccan vs. Egyptian)

Regards,
Khaled

Post by Kamal Abdali
This variation is unfortunate because it limits the use of many fonts across
different languages.
Below is the image of a Mac TextEdit window with the tashdid-kasra combination
in three different Urdu fonts.
Kamal Abdali
tashdid-kasra-urdu.jpg

The best thing is to try a font which does not have this kind of issue.

I've attached a pdf file of various Arabic fonts (most of them are
included with newer versions of Windows). The string is input with
tashdid before kasra. The first column has the script set to Arabic,
the second column has the language set to Urdu (the SIL fonts behave
differently here!), and the third has the language set to Farsi.
Hope this helps,
Andy
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