Finished testing Adobe OpenType Font Folio on the Mac

[William Adams]

I'm going to look into getting Linux installed on my G5 next (anyone
have a good suggestion for a Linux to run in Qemu?), but for the
nonce, here're the results of my dumping all of the font folder names
into a .tex file and wrapping them up in ``\setromanfont{}'' commands.

First, the good news, Aldus LT Std Roman seems to've been anomalous,
which in retrospect seems obvious since there aren't that many fonts
which have only a single weight w/ an italic.

Most troubling was a number of fonts which exist in text/script and
border/dingbat pairs, these almost invariably chose the ornamental
font, to wit:

Notre Dame LT Std
Pompeijana LT Std
Rusticana LT Std
Wiesbaden Swing LT Std

(JK, I'll send you the name tables from these and other problem fonts
presently)

I've not seriously tried to test any border / ornament / dingbat
fonts --- accessing them strikes me as potentially very thorny ---
anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? The only thing I'm
envisioning is making up one package for each such ornament which
provides commands to access the characters)

Several fonts set Greek instead of Latin text (I guess backwards
compatibility is more important than standards-compliance?):

Symbol Std
Universal Std

A couple of fonts had strange character issues (capitals in
particular weren't appearing). Does anyone have access to these and
if so have they been able to use them successfully?

ITC Stone Sans Std
ITC Stone Serif Std
New Century Schoolbook LT Std
Times LT Std

I've tried the standard font trouble-shooting things (clearing font
cache &c.) and the fonts worked fine in ID &co. so I'm mystified.

There were a couple of instances of the folder name not matching the
font family name (this list may not be compleat):

Folder name / typeface family name

Club Type Mercurius Std / Mercurius CT Std
Cooper Black Std / Cooper Std
DIN Std / DIN 1451 Std or DIN 30640 Std
Gothic Thirteen Std / Gothic 13 Std
ITC Berkeley Std / ITC Berkeley Oldstyle Std
Kepler Std Condensed Opticals / Kepler Std
Kepler Std Extended Opticals / Kepler Std
Kepler Std Opticals / Kepler Std
Kepler Std SemiCond Opticals / Kepler Std
Montara Std / Montara
Moonglow Std / Moonglow
OCRA Std / OCR A Std
OCRB Std / OCR B Std
Ouch Std / Ouch! Std
Penumbra Half Serif Std / Penumbra HalfSerif Std
PMN Caecilia LT Std / Caecilia LT Std
University Roman Std / University Std
Wilhelm Klingspor Gothic LT Std / Wilhelm Klingspor Gotisch LT Std

Also WebType Pro contained the following families:

%\setromanfont{Caflisch Script Web Pro}
%\setromanfont{Giddyup Web Pro}
%\setromanfont{Mezz Web Pro}%Bold
%\setromanfont{Minion Web Pro}
%\setromanfont{Myriad Web Pro}
%\setromanfont{Penumbra Web Pro}

Hopefully once I've had a chance to compleat this testing on a PC
I'll be able to clean up the file and post it somewhere or we could
add it as an addendum to the XeTeX (or FontSpec) docs somewhere.

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[William Adams]

Post by William Adams
A couple of fonts had strange character issues (capitals in
particular weren't appearing). Does anyone have access to these and
if so have they been able to use them successfully?
ITC Stone Sans Std
ITC Stone Serif Std
New Century Schoolbook LT Std
Times LT Std
I've tried the standard font trouble-shooting things (clearing font
cache &c.) and the fonts worked fine in ID &co. so I'm mystified.

Well, I've checked on my pen slate and these same difficulties seem
to exist in the W32tex (and presumably the Linux version).

I don't know if this is a useful bit of information or not, but in
Mac OS X, the not unknown character glyph (portrait-oriented
rectangle w/ an x through it) is set w/ zero width, while in W32xetex
it's set w/ what seems to be the width of the capital it's being used
in lieu of.

Also the numerals are set as superscript for ITC Stone Sans (maybe
the others too).

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[William Adams]

Post by William Adams
First, the good news, Aldus LT Std Roman seems to've been anomalous,
which in retrospect seems obvious since there aren't that many fonts
which have only a single weight w/ an italic.

I mis-remembered and didn't adequately look through things here.

The following fonts seem to exhibit similar difficulties to Aldus LT
Std:

%\setromanfont{Ariadne LT Std}% -- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Ariadne LT Std Roman}% -- x Pc ok Mac
%\setromanfont{Arnold Boecklin Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Auriol LT Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Banco Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Banshee Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Baskerville Cyrillic LT Std}% --- x PC OK Mac

Testing is really slow for me on the PC 'cause my pen slate is only
233MHz.

Additionally,
%\setromanfont{Bernhard Std}% doesn't make a .pdf? PC ok Mac
seems to process completely, but doesn't make a .pdf file --- would
it be helpful to send on the .xdv (made using xetex -no-pdf)?

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[Jonathan Kew]

Post by William Adams

Post by William Adams
First, the good news, Aldus LT Std Roman seems to've been anomalous,
which in retrospect seems obvious since there aren't that many fonts
which have only a single weight w/ an italic.

I mis-remembered and didn't adequately look through things here.
The following fonts seem to exhibit similar difficulties to Aldus LT
%\setromanfont{Ariadne LT Std}% -- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Ariadne LT Std Roman}% -- x Pc ok Mac
%\setromanfont{Arnold Boecklin Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Auriol LT Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Banco Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Banshee Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
%\setromanfont{Baskerville Cyrillic LT Std}% --- x PC OK Mac
Testing is really slow for me on the PC 'cause my pen slate is only
233MHz.
Additionally,
%\setromanfont{Bernhard Std}% doesn't make a .pdf? PC ok Mac
seems to process completely, but doesn't make a .pdf file --- would
it be helpful to send on the .xdv (made using xetex -no-pdf)?

I doubt the .xdv would show anything -- xetex is finding the font, or
it would complain. Most likely xdv2pdf is somehow failing. You might
want to run xetex -no-pdf and then xdv2pdf separately in Terminal, so
you don't miss any messages (no crash log, I presume?).

Check console.log for any messages from Quartz, too; if it's not
actually crashing, then I wonder if Quartz is somehow unhappy with
that font. Not much I can do to investigate it, though, as I don't
have access to the Adobe collection. Anyone with an Adobe friend care
to suggest that they donate a copy for testing purposes? ;)

JK

[William Adams]

Post by Jonathan Kew
I doubt the .xdv would show anything -- xetex is finding the font, or
it would complain. Most likely xdv2pdf is somehow failing. You might
want to run xetex -no-pdf and then xdv2pdf separately in Terminal, so
you don't miss any messages (no crash log, I presume?).

No, everything seems to complete okay, it's just that there's no .pdf
--- is there some temp location I could examine to see if the .pdf is
there?

Post by Jonathan Kew
Check console.log for any messages from Quartz, too; if it's not
actually crashing, then I wonder if Quartz is somehow unhappy with
that font.

Actually, this is happening on w32tex --- works fine on Mac OS X.

Post by Jonathan Kew
Not much I can do to investigate it, though, as I don't
have access to the Adobe collection. Anyone with an Adobe friend care
to suggest that they donate a copy for testing purposes? ;)

Have you tried getting in touch with Thomas Phinney? David Lemon once
suggested I do so for similar reasons. I'd think Adobe would be glad
of such testing.

Does this mean that the balance of the information I've worked up is
not useful?

(that Notre Dame LT Std, Pompeijana LT Std, Rusticana LT Std and
Wiesbaden Swing LT Std set dingbats / borders / ornaments rather than
text or that ITC Stone Sans Std, ITC Stone Serif Std, New Century
Schoolbook LT Std, Times LT Std don't set capital letters, or in some
instances numbers)

If there's any sort of output from dumperfuser or ttx which'd help
I'd be glad to (did you get the name tables I'd sent you for the text/
border fonts?)

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



This email message and any files transmitted with it contain information
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[Jonathan Kew]

Post by William Adams

Post by Jonathan Kew
I doubt the .xdv would show anything -- xetex is finding the font, or
it would complain. Most likely xdv2pdf is somehow failing. You might
want to run xetex -no-pdf and then xdv2pdf separately in Terminal, so
you don't miss any messages (no crash log, I presume?).

No, everything seems to complete okay, it's just that there's no .pdf
--- is there some temp location I could examine to see if the .pdf is
there?

Post by Jonathan Kew
Check console.log for any messages from Quartz, too; if it's not
actually crashing, then I wonder if Quartz is somehow unhappy with
that font.

Actually, this is happening on w32tex --- works fine on Mac OS X.

Ohhhh.... sorry, misunderstood. In that case I guess xdvipdfmx is
probably failing for some reason. Don't suppose running it manually
from the command line reveals anything?

Post by William Adams

Post by Jonathan Kew
Not much I can do to investigate it, though, as I don't
have access to the Adobe collection. Anyone with an Adobe friend care
to suggest that they donate a copy for testing purposes? ;)

Have you tried getting in touch with Thomas Phinney? David Lemon once
suggested I do so for similar reasons. I'd think Adobe would be glad
of such testing.
Does this mean that the balance of the information I've worked up is
not useful?
(that Notre Dame LT Std, Pompeijana LT Std, Rusticana LT Std and
Wiesbaden Swing LT Std set dingbats / borders / ornaments rather than
text or that ITC Stone Sans Std, ITC Stone Serif Std, New Century
Schoolbook LT Std, Times LT Std don't set capital letters, or in some
instances numbers)

It's potentially useful, depending on my finding time to spend on it.

Does this problem of wrong characters occur on all platforms, or only
W32?

Post by William Adams
If there's any sort of output from dumperfuser or ttx which'd help
I'd be glad to (did you get the name tables I'd sent you for the text/
border fonts?)

Yes, received, but haven't had time to pore over them as yet.

Thanks,

JK

[William Adams]

Post by Jonathan Kew
Does this problem of wrong characters occur on all platforms, or only
W32?

Both. The behaviour is slightly different between the two platforms
though, in Mac OS X the notdef character is set for any caps and with
zero width so that it's on top of the lowercase, in Windows we get
the notdef character set to the width of the cap.

I'll check on the other when I get a chance.

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[William Adams]

On Jul 5, 2006, at 9:05 AM, Jonathan Kew wrote:
(re: Bernhard Std not creating a .pdf)

Post by Jonathan Kew
In that case I guess xdvipdfmx is
probably failing for some reason. Don't suppose running it manually
from the command line reveals anything?

It does.

** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without the "native" font: BernhardStd-
BoldCondensed (Bernhard Std Bold Condensed)...

Output file removed.

Transcript written on test.log

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[Jonathan Kew]

Post by William Adams
(re: Bernhard Std not creating a .pdf)

Post by Jonathan Kew
In that case I guess xdvipdfmx is
probably failing for some reason. Don't suppose running it manually
from the command line reveals anything?

It does.
** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without the "native" font: BernhardStd-
BoldCondensed (Bernhard Std Bold Condensed)...
Output file removed.

That explains the absence of the PDF .... xdvipdfmx will delete the
(partial) output if something fails badly, rather than leaving an
invalid file that might cause major problems for a viewer.

You could try "xetex -no-pdf testfile.tex" to get an .xdv file, and
then "xdvipdfmx -vv testfile.xdv" to see if there are any additional
clues in the messages generated in "very verbose" mode. You might be
able to tell whether it is finding the font file but can't actually
load it, or simply not finding it at all.

JK

[William Adams]

Post by Jonathan Kew
You could try "xetex -no-pdf testfile.tex" to get an .xdv file, and
then "xdvipdfmx -vv testfile.xdv" to see if there are any additional
clues in the messages generated in "very verbose" mode. You might be
able to tell whether it is finding the font file but can't actually
load it, or simply not finding it at all.

Nope, seems to be exactly the same message, there's a brief note
about it trying to access the font though --- does this help?

[1(BernhardStd-BoldCondensed(Bernhard Std:Bold Condensed)@11.96pt
** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without the "native" font: BerhanrdStd-
BoldCondensed (Bernhard Std Bold Condensed)...

Output file removed.

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



This email message and any files transmitted with it contain information
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[Akira Kakuto]

Post by William Adams

Post by Jonathan Kew
You could try "xetex -no-pdf testfile.tex" to get an .xdv file, and
then "xdvipdfmx -vv testfile.xdv" to see if there are any additional
clues in the messages generated in "very verbose" mode. You might be
able to tell whether it is finding the font file but can't actually
load it, or simply not finding it at all.

Nope, seems to be exactly the same message, there's a brief note
about it trying to access the font though --- does this help?
** ERROR ** Cannot proceed without the "native" font: BerhanrdStd-
BoldCondensed (Bernhard Std Bold Condensed)...

I have "Bernhard Modern Std" and it seems to work fine on XeTeX W32.
Please check if the name "Bernhard Std" is recognized by
fontconfig or not.
I think font names that fontconfig understands can be found
in a file "foo" made by
fc-list >foo
(utf-8 encoding)
if cache files were created.

Thanks,
Akira

[William Adams]

Post by Akira Kakuto
I have "Bernhard Modern Std" and it seems to work fine on XeTeX W32.

So do I, and it didn't cause any difficulties.

Post by Akira Kakuto
Please check if the name "Bernhard Std" is recognized by
fontconfig or not.

Seems to've been, since XeTeX was able to make a .xdv

Post by Akira Kakuto
I think font names that fontconfig understands can be found
in a file "foo" made by
fc-list >foo
(utf-8 encoding)
if cache files were created.

And that file includes a line:

Bernhard Std Bold Condensed, Bernhard Std:style=Regular, Bold Condensed

(as well as a line for Bernhard Modern Std Roman, Bernhard Modern
Std:style=Regular,Roman)

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



This email message and any files transmitted with it contain information
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[Jonathan Kew]

Post by William Adams

Post by Akira Kakuto
I have "Bernhard Modern Std" and it seems to work fine on XeTeX W32.

So do I, and it didn't cause any difficulties.

Post by Akira Kakuto
Please check if the name "Bernhard Std" is recognized by
fontconfig or not.

Seems to've been, since XeTeX was able to make a .xdv

Right.... it's xdvipdfmx that is failing to find/load the font, not
xetex. So I need to figure out why; probably something about the
naming pattern used. I'm hoping to get access to some fonts from
Adobe for testing, which should help iron out this kind of stuff.

JK

[Akira Kakuto]

Hi,

Post by William Adams
Bernhard Std Bold Condensed, Bernhard Std:style=Regular, Bold Condensed
(as well as a line for Bernhard Modern Std Roman, Bernhard Modern
Std:style=Regular,Roman)

Does the file name of the font contain the suffix ".otf" ?
xdvipdfmx seems to assume the suffix ".otf" by

q = ensuresuffix(filename, ".otf");

for OpenType fonts.

Thanks,
Akira

[William Adams]

Post by Akira Kakuto
Does the file name of the font contain the suffix ".otf" ?
xdvipdfmx seems to assume the suffix ".otf" by
q = ensuresuffix(filename, ".otf");
for OpenType fonts.

Yes. The filename is BernhardStd-BoldCondensed.otf

William
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[William Adams]

Post by William Adams
A couple of fonts had strange character issues (capitals in
particular weren't appearing). Does anyone have access to these and
if so have they been able to use them successfully?
ITC Stone Sans Std
ITC Stone Serif Std
New Century Schoolbook LT Std
Times LT Std

Well, I finally puzzled out the difficulty for these. It's the matter
of Fractions or Phonetic variants being found and used in preference
to the Roman font, so while I suppose it could be worked around by
manually specifying variants, it'd be nice to fix it at the source,
but where's the difficulty, fontspec or XeTeX?

Perhaps the fix will help these as well?

Post by William Adams
Most troubling was a number of fonts which exist in text/script and
border/dingbat pairs, these almost invariably chose the ornamental
Notre Dame LT Std
Pompeijana LT Std
Rusticana LT Std
Wiesbaden Swing LT Std

William
(who doesn't understand why special OpenType fonts were made for
Fractions or Phonetics or Borders)
--
William Adams
senior graphic designer
Fry Communications



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[Adam Twardoch]

Post by William Adams
William
(who doesn't understand why special OpenType fonts were made for
Fractions or Phonetics or Borders)

One of the reasons why this was done so may have been licensing issues
(for example, somebody else owns the artwork), another may be easier
conversion of legacy documents. All in all, it doesn't really matter
much why this was done so. It is compliant with the OpenType
specification and simply demonstrates that it's possible and allowed to
make such fonts. Applications should be prepared for these kinds of cases.