Discussion:
Combining consonant with elongated r vowel (ऋ) in Devanagari using Mac
Ravi Parimi
2009-09-13 04:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Hello ,

I am trying to join the consonant त with the vowel ऋ on my Mac running
10.5.6 but cannot find the right combination of keystrokes to get the
desired conjunct form. Combining त and the shorter vowel ृ works as
expected resulting in तृ

Can anyone on this list show me the right sequence of keys to obtain
this? I'm using Devanagari QWERTY keyboard for inputting characters.

Thanks,
Ravi
Jonathan Kew
2009-09-13 08:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ravi Parimi
Hello ,
I am trying to join the consonant त with the vowel ऋ on my Mac running
10.5.6 but cannot find the right combination of keystrokes to get the
desired conjunct form. Combining त and the shorter vowel ृ works as
expected resulting in तृ
I'm not sure what you mean by "join the consonant त with the vowel
ऋ" ...
isn't that exactly what तृ is? The character U+0908 ऋ is
DEVANAGARI LETTER
VOCALIC R, in its full (syllable-initial) form; U+0943 ृ is
DEVANAGARI VOWEL
SIGN VOCALIC R, which is the combining form use on a consonant (such
as त).
What other kind of "joining" are you trying to achieve?

If you're actually looking for तॄ, that would be the consonant त
combined
with U+0960 ॠ. AFAICT, neither the full vowel letter U+0960 nor the
matra
form U+0944 are supported on the Mac Devanagari QWERTY keyboard, so
you'd have
to use the character palette or Hex Input layout to enter them, or
create a
customized keyboard with a tool such as Ukelele to type them more
conveniently.

JK
Post by Ravi Parimi
Can anyone on this list show me the right sequence of keys to obtain
this? I'm using Devanagari QWERTY keyboard for inputting characters.
Thanks,
Ravi
Ravi Parimi
2009-09-13 15:07:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ravi Parimi
Hello ,
I am trying to join the consonant त with the vowel ऋ on my Mac running
10.5.6 but cannot find the right combination of keystrokes to get the
desired conjunct form. Combining त and the shorter vowel ृ works as
expected resulting in तृ
I'm not sure what you mean by "join the consonant त with the vowel ऋ" ...
isn't that exactly what तृ is? The character U+0908 ऋ is DEVANAGARI LETTER
VOCALIC R, in its full (syllable-initial) form; U+0943 ृ is DEVANAGARI VOWEL
SIGN VOCALIC R, which is the combining form use on a consonant (such as त).
What other kind of "joining" are you trying to achieve?
If you're actually looking for तॄ, that would be the consonant त combined
with U+0960 ॠ. AFAICT, neither the full vowel letter U+0960 nor the matra
form U+0944 are supported on the Mac Devanagari QWERTY keyboard, so you'd
have
to use the character palette or Hex Input layout to enter them, or create a
customized keyboard with a tool such as Ukelele to type them more
conveniently.
Jonathan,

Thanks very much for your prompt response.

I was indeed looking to type तॄ using qwerty keys but didn't know how
to. I find that the qwerty keyboard provided by mac is limited in many
ways (e.g unable to type conjunct consonants, all combinations of
consonants+vowels not available etc.). I'd like to use xelatex for
creating my document, but am stifled by the set of characters that are
present in Mac. Do you have any other suggestions?


Thanks,
Ravi
Ross Moore
2009-09-13 19:17:09 UTC
Permalink
Hello Ravi,
Post by Ravi Parimi
I was indeed looking to type तॄ using qwerty keys but didn't know how
to. I find that the qwerty keyboard provided by mac is limited in many
ways (e.g unable to type conjunct consonants, all combinations of
consonants+vowels not available etc.). I'd like to use xelatex for
creating my document, but am stifled by the set of characters that are
present in Mac. Do you have any other suggestions?
Bring up the "Characters" palette on the Mac.
There are various ways to do this; e.g. click the language flag
in the righthand end of the top menu bar, and select
"Show Character Palette"
Not only does this show all the possible Unicode characters,
in all the fonts on your Mac., but you can use this as an input
mechanism to insert those characters into any document in any
another window. (It takes a bit of practice to get this working.)

There are other software tools that can also do this,
but the Character Palette is part of the Mac OS X,
so you must have it already.
Post by Ravi Parimi
Thanks,
Ravi
Hope this helps,

Ross

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ross Moore ross-To+F1JekST7X/***@public.gmane.org
Mathematics Department office: E7A-419
Macquarie University tel: +61 (0)2 9850 8955
Sydney, Australia 2109 fax: +61 (0)2 9850 8114
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan Kew
2009-09-13 19:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ravi Parimi
I was indeed looking to type तॄ using qwerty keys but didn't know how
to. I find that the qwerty keyboard provided by mac is limited in many
ways (e.g unable to type conjunct consonants, all combinations of
consonants+vowels not available etc.).
It's true that not all the Devanagari characters are provided on the
Devanagari-QWERTY keyboard. (Nor on the plain Devanagari layout,
apparently.) I assume these are designed for "normal" modern Hindi
use, and omit various rare or archaic characters. If you need one of
the "missing" characters frequently, it would be worth creating a
customized key layout using Ukelele (or another tool) to make it more
convenient to type.

However, "unable to type conjunct consonants" sounds like it may be
based on a misunderstanding. You should not expect to see individual
keys for all the various possible conjunct forms. You won't find them
in a Unicode character chart, either. A conjunct is formed
automatically by the font, given a text sequence of <consonant,
halant, consonant> (or potentially longer, of course, for more complex
forms). So to type त्र, for example, there is no त्र key;
you type <t, f, r> on the Devanagari-QWERTY layout (TA, HALANT, RA),
and the form त्र is automatically created.

The exact set of conjuncts that are available will depend on the font.
If the font does not provide a conjunct form for a particular
sequence, you'll see a halant form instead; the meaning is the same,
of course, though it may not be the preferred appearance. With the
Devanagari MT font on OS X, you can enable an "Additional Conjuncts"
feature (this came up recently on the mailing list) to cause more
clusters to display with special conjunct glyphs; but this is still a
function of the font, and not something that involves different
keystrokes or encoded characters.

(Don't be misled by the presence of a few conjuncts such as क्ष,
श्र and ज्ञ on the Devanagari-QWERTY layout. These
keystrokes are presumably provided because users are accustomed --
from old typewriter habits -- to finding them as distinct keystrokes,
but they are in fact inserting sequences of characters: when you press
the key for क्ष, the three characters क <halant> ष are
actually generated. You can equally well type the sequence yourself --
the keystrokes <k, f, x> -- and get exactly the same result.)
Post by Ravi Parimi
I'd like to use xelatex for
creating my document, but am stifled by the set of characters that are
present in Mac. Do you have any other suggestions?
If you give specific examples of the characters (or combinations) you
are looking for, perhaps someone will be able to either suggest
alternative fonts (it may be that some of the available OpenType fonts
implement a richer collection of conjunct forms, for example), or
point out how you should be representing them in your text.

The basic issue is not what is "present in Mac", but what characters
are available in Unicode -- and unless your needs are remarkably
unusual, I'd expect Unicode to include everything you need, it may
just be a question of understanding how to use the available characters.

JK
Ravi Parimi
2009-09-13 20:43:41 UTC
Permalink
If you give specific examples of the characters (or combinations) you are
looking for, perhaps someone will be able to either suggest alternative
fonts (it may be that some of the available OpenType fonts implement a
richer collection of conjunct forms, for example), or point out how you
should be representing them in your text.
The basic issue is not what is "present in Mac", but what characters are
available in Unicode -- and unless your needs are remarkably unusual, I'd
expect Unicode to include everything you need, it may just be a question of
understanding how to use the available characters.
Thanks Jonathan and Ross for your replies. I think the obstacle I'm
faced with is understanding how to use the current set of unicode
characters that Mac provides. I found it unusual that there was no
easy way to input त + ऋ directly from the available keys. Following
Ross' suggestion, I was able to insert this character at the desired
location in my text by picking it from the character palette.

I used the Velthuis fonts/processing system previously to create a few
docs and liked the variation in font styles that it offered (e.g
bombay, calcutta, pen). The project website for devnag says that it
now supports typesetting devanagari with xetex, and also verified this
with an example that was included in the Velthuis package.

Without using the Velthuis package, is it possible to generate a
devanagari doc with different kinds of fonts? This doesn't seem
feasible given that I'm only using the Devanagari MT font in my tex
sources. I'd like to know if there are any other devanagari fonts
available for Mac.

Thanks!

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